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00:00

What’s up everyone this is Ted, your friend and host speaking and welcome back to the business show the best place for actionable advice for entrepreneurs. On today’s show we have Joseph australe. With get some class after Joseph graduated from Harvard Law and worked in the most prestigious law firms in New York, he realized that he did not want to pursue a long term career in law.

 

Left set up get some cost to provide classy virtual team building experiences that is executed at a very high level of quality. In fact, Joe’s accounts, some of the top US law firms and consulting firms as his clients, so he definitely has a thing or two to share about this as well. So what’s in it for you guys? Well, the key takeaways in today’s episode includes Joseph, his journey of self discovery, the importance of getting repeat customers, and the importance of managing expectations. Now for those of you who don’t know me,

 

I’m actually a mergers and acquisitions lawyer in Singapore. So Joseph and I definitely vide a lot in today’s conversation. Now, guys, the show has grown significantly over the last month. So thank you, each and every one of you has listening in right now. Your support keeps me going. And I’m eternally grateful, if you’d like to show some support for the show as well. And you can always subscribe to the show, share with somebody who find it useful as well.

 

And to leave a review on Apple podcasts. Now buckle down, strap up your info, right. Hey, Joseph, thank you for joining us today. It’s so nice to have you here.

 

01:14

Hey, Ted,

 

01:15

thank you so much for having me. Now, Joseph Liston have a very simple icebreaker. So we can all get to know you better. Could you share with us? Who is Joseph Christelle, when he isn’t working?

 

01:24

Yeah, I have no idea. You know, I’m in the process of figuring that out. peeling back lots of layers and figuring out who the hell am I you know.

 

So, you know, one of the things that that for me, I’ve realized is that we have so many stories and narratives that we live out of, and when you become part of becoming a real adult, is really beginning to understand, who are you kind of living for? And why. And so that, right now, I’m deep in that process of self exploration. What am I doing? Who am I doing it for?

 

Am I pretending to be something? You know, am I trying to prove myself? How can I, you know, stop trying to prove myself and so that’s kind of a major part of my current focus?

 

02:10

Well, it sounds like my friend Joseph is on a beautiful journey to learn about himself. Now, Joe. So since we’re talking about your journey, where you’re learning about yourself, please share with us your story. Now you previously read law in Harvard, and even join one a top law firms in a world thereafter. But you’ve left since and you’ve been quite vocal about how you realize that practicing law was just not for you. So you left and actually started your current venture, get some class, connect the dots for us, please walk us through what your thoughts were like, during this process. How do you feel about it? Yeah, sure.

 

02:41

So you know, I went to law school. I was probably I think I was like, 2028, or so when I started law school. So on the average a little bit later. You know, just for any listeners that don’t have proper context, in the US, a law degree is a secondary spray. It’s a post grad degree. You’ve already done your bachelor’s, I actually went to college,

 

I come from a very traditional religious background. And most of it you know, most of my high school education was focused on religious study, we actually didn’t have enough, you know, secondary coursework even to get a high school diploma. And I still think I’m the only guy in my high school class that went to college period.

 

Then even I only did that at about 22 years old, sneaking off at night from kind of a religious seminary. To take courses at night and some Lino small local college. You know, and I like that

 

03:38

you did very well, you know, there

 

03:39

you go. Well, the curiosity, you know, couldn’t be stifled at some point. It’s like, hey, what the hell am I doing? Is this really me, like I said before, you know, and it’s been a process of self discovery since so I went in about 2223. I started doing doing undergrad, I majored in psych, I thought about going into psych, I tried to get in, actually, to some social psych PhD programs, because because human psychology and human irrationality in particular, and the ways in which we kind of behave, and we’re thinking in ways that don’t make sense,

 

they’re kind of interesting to me, but I didn’t get in anywhere, you know, I didn’t really have any credentials at the time, then I had a family needed a career. So you know, I had friends go into law school. If you’re bright, you can get into some very good schools without kinda without, like, a lot of work experience or credentials.

 

And so I took the L SAT, I did really well. And I got into Harvard. And at that point, that’s like, you know, you’re going to Harvard. It’s pretty attractive opportunity is such an achievement. Yeah, you know, so so I went over I went to, I moved to Boston, you know, I went to Harvard, it’s my first time and kind of a really stimulating, sophisticated University and it was just you know, it was a blast.

 

It was unbelievable being with so many bright people having so many resources, the coolest people would come in, you know, you had some Supreme Court justices coming in, you know, throughout the year you had congressmen and senators and you know heads of agencies and the government or billionaires or you know, all sorts of really stimulating people. So it’s just a awesome opportunity.

 

I would have liked to stay there for longer but that at some point you graduate you got the student debt piling up, you’re gonna

 

05:21

pay it Oh,

 

05:21

I you gotta you have, you have to be fiscally responsible. You know, unfortunately, money doesn’t just drop from heaven. Although these days, some people are trying to drop it on us. Right? But yeah, so I went to work, I went to work at Davis, Polk, Davis, Polk and wardwell.

 

They’re like a top, top Manhattan firm. Some really Notable alumni, I’m sure you know, Kristin Gillibrand, the current senator of New York, and Grover Cleveland to go back president the united states. And you know, it was really an awesome place from an experience perspective, like they work was just really really, you know, that like, very sophisticated the people they are their professionalism was like it’s use, I’m sure you’ve interacted and your firm is probably like, really, really cool. But like, that kind of awesome attitude of professionalism.

 

You know, you just absorb it, absorb it through the walls, it was really, really a powerful learning experience. But at the same time, it was like, I’m sitting at a desk reviewing tiny pre tax provisions in these huge legal documents, I have nothing to do the transaction, no idea what’s going on. Why the hell is someone else doing a transaction? and not me, you know, is he smarter than me or she or like, probably not, like, I don’t want to sit here in the office clocking my time somewhere,

 

I want to take risk, I want skin in the game, I want strategy, I want to be creative. I want to decide what I think is the best way to do things. And you know, to hell with people telling me what to do.

 

06:52

Spoken like a true entrepreneur.

 

06:54

There you go, there you go. So I kind of realized that, but at the same time, it was like, How the hell do I get out of here? Right? You know, it’s good learning opportunity, good experience, good connections, but like, What do I do? So you’re super busy, like working in a law firm, it’s not easy to kind of have time to explore. And that can be a bit of both and stuff like that.

 

Exactly. You got to do the work. And you know, I didn’t want to slack and you know, not do a good job. So, you know, I there are some of the easier options and that come up are things like consulting or investment banking, you know, roles like that. And, of course, I thought about those, but like, no, they never talked to my heart, they’re kind of the easy way out. And sometimes, you know, it makes sense. It could make sense for somebody in a particular area, but often, they’re kind of a way of evading the ultimate decision, if that’s if your personality and character is like,

 

it’s like mine, that could be a way of, you know, eventually, you’d have to find some way to make that leap and that hop. So I had some false starts, you know, I started working on with a friend and a data privacy startup, which I wasn’t really interested in, but he was starting, and I was kind of desperate. So I’m like, Okay, fine. Maybe I’ll, you know, find a way but you want to give it a shot and see where it goes. Yeah, yeah. So eventually, you know, that crash, because we thought the area was too saturated.

 

Then the pandemic came along, and I was thinking about, you know, virtual classes for kids, and what can I do in the virtual space? And I participated in some stuff at work, you know, like a virtual wine tasting, wasn’t very impressed with it. But I said, like, Hey, what about virtual corporate events? So I reached out to, you know, an events person at Davis Polk, and I said, Hey, you know, I’m trying to understand the space because I’m not really happy with my career, and I think I want to do something else. So can you help me understand it?

 

And she was super gracious, very, very nice. really talked to me a few times. And then I just, you know, I was playing chess online during the pandemic before the Queen’s gambit came out, just by luck. And I said, huge Netflix it? Yeah, yeah. No, it was a great series. And I got like, that was just a stroke of luck. Yeah. So I said, you know, what about a chest event? And she’s like, never heard of that. That’s interesting. You know, why do you put it together and do a demo for us. So, you know, I went around looking for a top chess player, anyone who had an agent, you know, right away.

 

I just avoided but you can get pretty high in chess without getting too expensive and without somebody necessarily having an agent to represent them. I found that an awesome chess player Sam shankland. us chess jam, and he just won the Prague Masters Tournament. Like number 25 in the world.

 

09:29

I believe he’s also helping Magnus causing trade. Correct. He’s

 

09:32

trained Magnus. Yeah, he’s done. He’s done tray. He’s helped train Magnus helped Magnus prepare for championships, you know, really a serious, serious player. And then we went ahead and we, we did a demo for them.

 

So I’ve put together a structure I wasn’t going to risk doing the demo for them. Before I did it with friends. I did it with friends. And then we put together a little package with a chess set and a chess themed snack package with chessmen. cookies from Pepperidge farms and chest chocolates that I had to chocolatier make for me and you know, in a nice little box and we sent it to them. And then we did it and we had a little tournament and a strategy talk.

 

And, you know, they really enjoyed it. And so I’m like, you know, what the hell? Why don’t I do a demo for some other events people so I just started emailing events, people at other top law firms, I said, We’d like to attend a chess demo, and we’re still early enough in the pandemic that you know, they weren’t getting inundated. And they’re like Sure, so I had like 15 to 20 people show up and we did a demo and they liked it. And one of the one of the friends who had participated in my test audience liked it and he’s like wanting to do it for my company.

 

So that was actually our first event that we did for his company and then Wyden case emailed me like a couple weeks later they’re like hey, we want to do these chests event for a group so I did it for them and you know I start getting a few events like that

 

10:56

Yeah, the top names Yeah, yeah, I

 

11:01

was while I was doing my job on the side so I kept going surreptitiously you know law firms often can be very conservative about side projects so I didn’t want anybody to know until I was ready and then you know, I created a couple other programs which I can tell you about later. And then I landed a program focused on women in chess for the Boston Consulting Group and Oliver Wyman two different programs same same program for two different companies in March of this past year

 

and I was like you know what the hell if I can land programs like this for clients like this I’ll find some way to make it work you know I have revenue coming in there’s you know, there’s I have sales let me I’m just gonna jump ship

 

11:42

big names very early on. So yeah, you know, huge confidence boost.

 

11:46

Exactly, exactly. So you know, whether or not it was stupid I don’t know but I’m happy I jumped ship that’s for sure. Because you know, there was there were some facts on the ground it was not an imprudent completely unreasonable decision. And I was just so you know, done with you know, reviewing hybrid technical agreements not having some creative outlet so that’s kind of the the starting story.

 

12:13

Yeah, Joseph, you sound like a really creative guy, and you’re hot, you know, you’re an entrepreneur and you just took you a while to get there. You know, from your high school days to university to going to the firm, and then you realize, okay, as part of this self discovery journey, I think I know who I am. Joseph gastel is an entrepreneur.

 

12:30

Okay, if you’re trying to define me, but I told you I still don’t know who I am so well that’s how

 

12:34

I’ve seen you so far. But yeah, so Joseph, could you share what is the value proposition of the service that you are providing with get some class to your clients? in your own words, please?

 

12:43

Yeah, yeah. 100% so there’s, you know, there’s kind of the current value proposition right and then there’s, you know, who are we right so just like there’s the my process of self exploration Every business has a process of self exploration especially when you’re young you know, who really is your customer? Who really should you chase

 

How do you want to define yourself both from your own perspective and from a business creation perspective, what’s most profitable so right now what we are is we provide high end you know, virtual fun, that’s intellectually rich, or that’s kind of you know, particularly compelling and entertaining for companies and we’re starting to work with Alumni Associations as well on zoom or other platforms as well.

 

So you know, what we try to do is we try to build programs that are unique that are not being offered elsewhere and that are executed with a quality of First of all, you know at a quality that’s kind of you know, far higher than the average you know, team building offering out there so we use we try to use really cool talent try to do things in trying to make the problems contemporary and

 

I’ll give you an example of that shortly and then if there’s a package component we try to make a compliment the event really nicely and be kind of above and beyond and then we try to curate the program so that it’s really you know, it’s it’s fun and entertaining and if possible, you know, with an intellectual curiosity dimension to it. You want me to give an example? Yes, of course.

 

Please go ahead. Awesome. So there’s there’s two Well, there are a couple of good examples let’s start so one is we have a paint night offering and you’ve probably seen something like that, you know, where you get an art kit or some people don’t, don’t send that but you get an arcade and then you have an instructor Lita, a painting, you know, our so what we did there is I went ahead and I found a real artists whose works are, you know, very, very contemporary. So, artists, her name is Lisa Lickliter Kovalenko. She’s actually a middle of a solo show up in this, you know, prominent gallery in the Hudson. And she paints fragile ecosystems.

 

Oh, so she goes diving all over the world right now. Yeah, yeah, it’s awesome. She’s right now she’s, you know, in the process of painting a series on coral reefs and she goes scuba diving all over the world, she photographs them observes them then comes back and paints these unbelievable works. You know, the 54 inches by 18 inches, a lot of them, that’s six foot eight by four foot six, the big ones, and they take a month or two, and they’re just unbelievable replications of these underwater environments, and then what we do is, you know, she leads the session.

 

So it’s like, you get to learn about her artwork and learn from somebody who was a real master. And we paint something relating to her work. So we usually paint a simple coral reef painting, she talks about, you know, her artistic process about coral reefs. And, you know, everybody gets to paint with her. And then we’ll also bring on a marine biologist to talk about the science of coral reefs. Well,

 

15:44

so that’s the complimentary policy we’re talking about. Right?

 

15:46

Exactly, yeah. So we’re, you know, we’re trying to make it a deeper, intellectually rich, having multiple elements going on, so that there’s kind of, you know, stimulation from, you know, intellectually participatory for you, because you’re active, you’re doing something, and then we send everybody in our kit. And of course, we send them all the supplies they need.

 

And, you know, curate an instruction sheet with step by step, exactly what we’re doing what paintbrush we’re using, what color we’re using, because on zoom, it’s hard to kind of follow, you know, what the artists is, you know, what brought these kinds of little details. So we simplify that, but then we also throw in an art theme snack package. So we have custom made pallet shaped cookies, we print the company’s name on it, we put it into chocolate paintbrush, custom made by a chocolatier for me color coordinated candies with a beautiful welcomecard with her artwork on the back.

 

So really, really multi touch point, rich, cool towel and unique, thoughtful, really kind of that’s, you know, it’s a composite that’s far, you know, meant to be a much richer experience. So

 

16:42

I think what you’re really communicated is how you took a very simple idea that’s really existing the market because I mean, to be honest, virtual online, team building sessions are not new. But what I realized you do differently from the rest of the competition, is that you actually package it in a much higher quality, and you make sure that the execution is high quality as well, from what you just shared a simple art class, just by bringing in the right individual

 

who has a richer level experience and pairing it with the marine biologist, you made the whole experience, if I can say so a lot more deeply memorial in totality. So Joseph, what kind of reactions do you get from your clients,

 

17:17

people have said, you know, thank you so much for this awesome opportunity, you know, really, really unique, didn’t think would be this much fun, etc. So that very, very favorable. You know, responses, we’ve run the program for Kirkland and Ellis, for example, you know, like, I think four times already for different groups. So overall, very, very favorable responses to that program, and some of the other ones as well.

 

17:45

So guys, as Joseph has shared, one way you can really stand out from the competition is to really just emphasize on taking the old business model and executing it at a higher level in a way that gives a better and deeper experience to your customers. Sometimes, that’s all it takes, you don’t even have to create a whole new market, or a whole new business model.

 

Now Joseph, could you share with us some of the key learning points that you took away when you first started your business? What are some maybe mistakes they were made? And how did you improve on these processes,

 

18:12

one mess up early on, that’s happened, you know, one or two times and it’s gonna happen is we shipped, you know, raw ingredients for, for, you know, a stakeout or cooking event or a couple of our cooking events. And we’ve had situations where this stuff got there, and the aspects were improperly frozen, and I got an email, hey, you know, what you send me is warm, right? The meat is not cold enough. And that’s kind of, you know, obviously a disaster.

 

And the truth is, I happen to know that butcherbox for example, you know, calculates their, how they send the packages, and how much dry ice and how much, you know, what they put in with us, there is an exact science that based on zip code they’ve developed and, you know, they calculate student fail rate, and they optimize the cost to allow for a certain fail rate. And, you know, they replaced the package very quickly. But either way, you know, when you’re in this, there’s going to be fails, inevitably, because ups will delay and so on.

 

But you don’t want the fail to be as a result of view. So, you know, we’ve had mistakes and what I, the the, you know, it’s scary to make a mistake like that, especially when you have you know, certain Yeah, serious clients. But what I’ve found is, you know, even though it’s very scary to do, you got to be proactive about it, you reach out, you communicate, you say,

 

Hey, you know what, just want to let you know, apparently there was, you know, there wasn’t enough ice or wasn’t probably frozen, and some people got it and was not in a state that we’re comfortable with, we’re going to replace it and so, when that happens,

 

what I’ve done is I’ve gone on instacart and I’ve actually sent people I replaced their meat off instacart you know, within a day or so, so that they could participate and have a good time because I want to make sure that they have a good time. So yeah, that’s kind of a, you know, a lesson in in logistics optimization stuff like that’s going to happen if you’re doing some sort of logistics like this.

 

And you want to be in a position where you kind of are proactive about it. And now what I’ve learned to do is kind of try and communicate in advance and tell people look, this is how we ship. Invariably, you know, we rely on ups, there could be some, you know, lag with ups and stuff like that, something like this could happen, and we’ll stay on top of it, we’ll do our best. And then, you know, I try to make what we’re responsible for, obviously, be reasonable. And then, you know, just couldn’t set expectations appropriately in the beginning. So yeah, that’s kind of one example. Probably a lot of different things we can talk about what that question, though, is

 

20:45

very cool, because you know, the whole emphasis on customer satisfaction is always driving the way that you run the business process as well, which is super important, especially if you want them to come back as recurring clients,

 

20:54

it’s a tie back to law, right. So I’m not practicing law. I mean, I’ve read our contracts. But that’s not a major part of what we do. But one of the things that I did take that is just tremendously valuable is that kind of emphasis on professionalism, and communication. And, you know, that is the place where I tried to make our service really, really, really strong.

 

So you know, we send, we send a tracking sheet with every single tracking number or to the whoever the coordinator is, with a link, they can click to check on it, we follow up, I update them, you know, what’s going on with the packaging, or in touch, we try to be, you know, very, very communicative, and very, very reliable in the same way that the elite, you know, law circles that we work at, do so that I kind of learned that from their true self

 

21:41

this issue very true. Something that’s always been shared with law students is that the study and practice of the law is not just a career or profession, the law actually teaches you many life skills that could help you in any endeavor that you do in the future. Now guys to circle back to Joseph’s earlier point, if you’re in a business where you are actually involved in logistics, there always inevitably be times when there are deliveries. So the best way you can do this is to manage

 

that communication process with your clients in the event that they are possible, make subs, be upfront about it, and address how you can make this better for your client. As soon as you can. Your clients want to see a certain level of professionalism from you. And it’s that degree of professionalism and ability to take care of the needs that will bring them back as repeat customers. Joseph, could you share some tips on how you’ve actually been able to get your customers to come back as repeat customers,

 

22:28

it’s, um, I think you’re touching on something that’s kind of important. So for a while, I was kind of focused on getting more customers and I still am. But like, appreciating who my existing customers are, and how large their organizations are, and paying attention and trying to deepen and cultivate those relationships. I didn’t realize the importance of that early on enough, I realized that somebody kind of, you know, knocked me on the head and said,

 

Hey, you know, you don’t rush to get other customers and forget about your current ones. Even if you have a small number of very large companies, for a business like mine, you know, that could be, I could have a small number of customers like that and have a full business. So you know, what I’ve been trying to do is kind of turn back and focus on the people that

 

I’ve interfaced with, and try to ensure that we have periodic touch points that I’m sharing stuff with them, that we’re kind of re engaging and the like, and now what we’re trying to do is instead of just having and this kind of is a more general sales and temporary sales topic, instead of kind of everything needing to be trying to get people on the phone for a conversation or trying to, you know, share your marketing and sales material, trying to find ways to add value to them that are not directly salesy. So you know, we just hosted a conversation last week,

 

Thursday, we’re actually doing a second second one on the same topic for people can make it this Thursday, on how to make an awesome virtual holiday party. And we’re going through, you know, some of the principles that we use to design things and then some ideas. And that’s kind of a way of giving people value without selling directly and so, you know, it nurtures the relationship and allows you to say hey, you know, come join us for this discussion on how to make an awesome you know, virtual event or come join us for this discussion on how to ensure that your employees are connecting and building relationships even though they’re no longer than office together, right?

 

So programs like that are, you know, where we’re headed, so that we can have ongoing value provision that is not directly salesy, and we can, you know, nurture and deepen our relationships with our existing customers, while also adding new, you know, prospects and customers by, you know, providing other sources of value to them that are not directly salesy.

 

So that’s, you know a bit about the of like, not realizing, realizing how valuable they it is to deepen those relationships, finding ways that are not just kind of, you know, sales oriented to deepen those. And we’re in the process of learning it. So I don’t know the answer to that question, which is kind of, by the way, a theme? I don’t know the answers to the question, you know, good place.

 

Exactly. It’s a good place to stay, you know, you want to keep it said, Yeah, too, because you want to be curious. There’s this this famous thing of Socrates. And I’ll pause sorry, if I’m going on too long. You know, Socrates used to go around saying Know thyself, right. And, you know, finally, you know, one young guy with some clips by you, you mentioned that word. I think when we talk pre interview, he says to Socrates, well, Socrates, you say, Don’t Know thyself all the time?

 

Do you know yourself? Right? And Socrates says, No, I don’t know myself. But I know something about this not knowing. Right? And so you know, in many areas in life, almost any intellectual area, the goal is to know something about the not knowing but not to let go of the mind that doesn’t know this is very Zen. And also, by the way, right? Don’t know mind. beginner’s mind, they call it right,

 

26:08

interesting points. Joseph. Now guys, one thing I’d like to talk about is the idea of your cost of customer acquisition. So every time you actually acquire a new customer, you need to factor in your cost of customer acquisition. So a great part of getting repeat customers is that their cost of customer acquisition is a lot lower. And this tends to translate into higher profit margins.

 

Now, Joseph, no conversation about get some class will be complete about talking about the amazing trainers that you have on board with your company. Well, I know you’re really shared about a few trainers that you have on board at the moment, who are the rest of the talented individuals that you have on board? And how do you get them to join you as part of the program? Yeah, so

 

26:44

you know, each one is kind of a different story. Sam, I found on the internet, you know, was looking around through the top ranked chess players. And then I started looking for the websites, I found the number, but like, they seem to have agents. And then I found Sam and I reached out to him, and this was kind of still in the height of the pandemic.

 

And so, you know, people weren’t going around that they didn’t have what to do. And, you know, hopping on zoom for an hour and leaving something in your area was just a cool opportunity. And, you know, he was happy to kind of work with me around it and testing it. And it’s, it’s just, you know, I got lucky they are found a mixture of luck and work and the right time.

 

And that’s how I found Sam, then a lot of, you know, I try when I find one of the things I’ve learned is, when I find one, some talent in an area, oftentimes they’ll and I build credibility and relationship with them, they’ll kind of help me find other talents in that area.

 

So that’s, that’s one thing that’s been very fruitful. The other some of the other ones, like, you know, nikolina, I have a friend who is an artist. And she, she knew about Nika because she loves her work. So she mentioned her to me, and then I reached out. I think it’s kind of you know, it’s important that for me, the vision is not just it’s not just the business vision, there’s an element over here about conveying the what it is that we’re running the program around,

 

so like, I love her, the art loved her art, and I love the fact that she’s kind of highlighting these really, really magnificent elements of the world. And so, you know, we’re not just connecting or connecting on you know, it’s not just about Hey, let me run this business program. It’s kind of let me you know, let me share you with the world Yeah,

 

28:49

it’s part of your whole curation process as well right? I’m sure each of the individual trainers that you bring in you’ve personally believe in what you’re teaching and you want that experience for your customers as well.

 

29:00

Yeah, I try to you know, I like to be excited about the people that I’m choosing to bring in so I like them to be awesome and you know, I feel they’re you know, when I feel they’re awesome, and like I’m a big fan of theirs, it’s kind of helpful to convincing them to come on board and do something. But yeah, it’s also you know, like I said during the pandemic, people were looking for opportunities I

 

29:27

understand now Joseph a key part of having a good relationship between is that you have on board is to definitely set the expectations right from the very start. So what advice would you have given yourself when you first started this program now that you have the experience that you have? Yeah, I

 

29:41

think I didn’t do it that well in the sense that for some of them yeah, like I have people that are awesome, and I really want to run programs with but and we have I’ve designed promos with them, but I haven’t yet run a program with them. And what I think I would have done could have done better and in working on improving on his managing expectations, you know, in general, you need to have a long term focus. And if you’re trying to rush the results,

 

you’ll often come, you’re just you’re not, which I was doing initially, and to some extent was appropriate, because I kind of wanted to validate the idea, right? You’re, but you can’t, you don’t take the time to set up proper marketing funnels and marketing materials and you know, learn that whole process. So you the long term focus is important.

 

And it’s same thing applies to, you know, expectation management, when it comes to the people you’re trying to get on board. And it just like I said, before, you know, you want to just signal very clearly, what, when I’m sending packages to people that they should expect that some may not get there, right. And that’s normal, especially when you’re sending a lot, you want to signal to people you’re working with what to expect. And so like, if you’re starting with somebody and you make contact with them, it may be that you don’t come back to them for six months or a year.

 

And so you kind of, you know, the more upfront you are about that process, and the fact that like, Hey, you know, there may be a number of false doors here, I’m building a young business till I figure out exactly how it goes, and I can’t even promise you know that I’m going to bring you something. But I really like what you do I love you know, I think you’re awesome. And I would love to figure out exactly how to do that. And it may take me six months or a year, but I’m gonna try a number of times, and so many of these may peter out, but eventually, I hope to really come back and do something awesome.

 

If not, you know not, but I really would like to, and I really think that you’re, you know, really, really cool. So that’s kind of the message that I really would like to send now, and would have been helpful to know then. But you know, live live and learn,

 

31:49

live and learn. Indeed. Now, Joseph, you mentioned earlier in the conversation that you will also be working on some other side projects, would you like to share them? No, yeah, sure. So

 

31:57

you know, when I first of all, it just just just to step back for a second, if you’re a client you have if you’re doing something and you don’t know what you want to do, one of the things you want to, and you want to You mean, you know you want to do something else, you’re not happy, and you don’t know what you want to do, and nothing and things aren’t just falling in your lap, you want to find ways to kind of begin to put things out into the world that can bounce back to, you know, think of it as like you’re existing in a gray space.

 

And you need to figure out what are the contours of that space, so you can make more informed decisions and know where where you can jump, that’s not so risky. You want to be throwing things around the space. And so you want to find ways to generate to network and generate relationships and interactions, but have something to do with around. So it’s not just like, Hey, can I talk to you? Because something I mean, that can work too.

 

You can talk to lots of people, that’s helpful. But if you can do it around the like, Hey, I’m putting together a conversation around this, would you like to come or you know, I’m organizing some group around this, the something else would you like to join that that’s an awesome way to kind of begin to explore space. And so one thing, I took me a while to get out of a law firm. And one thing I realized is there’s a lot of lawyers that are no longer practicing law.

 

And in particular, you know, Harvard lawyers that aren’t practicing law, and some of them are, you know, doing amazing things. Last week, I spoke to somebody, she’s the chief growth officer of the New York Times, right? She’s a Harvard lawyer. And, you know, many fortune 500 CEOs are Harvard lawyers. And, and obviously, not just Harvard, but because that was my school, what was kind of natural for me to start looking for people like that.

 

And I said, I started reaching out to friends and other people. And I said, Hey, would you want to be part of group of lawyers who have left the law? And they’re like, a lot of people’s like, yeah, that’s interesting. I would love to because people, you know, they relate to their legal background, they relate to their people, the school they went to is very important to them. Especially when it’s, you know, a prestigious school. And there are lots of other people doing cool things. So they said, Yeah, and so we started doing like, you know, occasional networking events, and virtual and programming.

 

And now I have 140 people on the list. And, you know, we’re trying to find ways to provide value to them, and then also to allow them to mentor other lawyers who would like to, you know, shift careers and we’re actually running an experiment in December. We’re hosting a career fair for and we’re bringing 25 companies who to offer non legal roles to existing lawyers out of elite law firms, and if anyone’s listening to this, and you, you know, there’s a talent shortage out there.

 

You want awesome talent. Where are you we are going to be bringing, you know, 100 top lawyers from awesome law firms who don’t want to practice law and are looking for some way to transition and offering them you know, non legal roles, whether it’s project management, whether it’s legal, adjacent legal tech, you know, consulting or you know just MCs role in a startup those are kind of you know the the roles we’re really trying to get public policy the full range so it could be completely unrelated to law operations You know, a lot of these lawyers are very conscientious very, very capable.

 

We’re still building a roster of attendees, we’re not charging the company is anything it’s an experiment, we’re going to see how it goes. But I think it’s going to be you know, a we have interest already, I think it’d be really cool. So that’s kind of a side project and, you know, side projects are awesome because they teach you about a space and then if you need a if you you, once you’ve learned about it, you know, softly you can kind of find a way to make a business they are also so like,

 

it doesn’t have to be the goal, but oftentimes they could kick something off. So yeah, that’s kind of my side project.

 

35:44

So Joseph, the listeners only remember one thing from today’s conversation would you like it to be

 

35:49

Yeah, um, I think it ties back to what we were just discussing, you know, being curious, exploring, finding ways to you know, test that curiosity by building relationships around something you’re interested in without kind of even a definite goal is really really good. Keep it keep it don’t know mind around things you know, don’t assume that you know, and sit and it’s okay to stay in that place of curiosity of not knowing that’s you know, it’s a good place to be you know, keep your keep your mind open and, and try to be as human and relational about the process as possible.

 

So, you know, try to be honest, try to be authentic, don’t necessarily try to be getting something out of the conversation. It’s hard sometimes, especially when you’re trying to really build not to, but just, you know, play the long game and be curious, open, authentic connect to people find ways to help them that’s kind of really really good because those things often evolve into collaborative relationships that are really really productive and mutually beneficial.

 

So yeah, that’s that’s kind of my my, the, what I would emphasize which is more than one thing, the Curiosity the authenticity and the finding ways to provide mutual benefit.

 

37:07

So Joseph, how can listeners get in contact with you they want to work with you or they want to get a class with get some class

 

37:12

Yeah, so you can email me directly at Joseph at get some class calm. That’s j s cph. At get some class, that’s the three words get some class calm. And people you know, if you just want to talk, you want to talk about transitioning entrepreneurship, or, you know, thinking about ways to find alternate careers. If you’re interested in though, in the career fair that I had mentioned, you can get in touch as well, you know, it doesn’t have to be directly.

 

 You don’t have to be coming to provide a sale to me, I would love that and come Come give me a huge sale. You know, we’re trying to crush our numbers. But this year, bring us a million dollar sale, we’ll send 1000 packages that will do that for you. But you don’t have to just come if you want to talk. If it’s interesting, you want to you need some help you want me to make a connection for you to somebody that might be helpful for you. By all means, feel free to reach out.

 

38:00

Now Joseph, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your experience and your expertise. It’s so nice having you here.

 

38:05

Thank you, Ted. It’s been a pleasure. I like what you’re doing. It’s it’s really cool to have an opportunity to meet somebody from across the world and to connect and you’re doing you’re doing a good job.

 

38:14

So guys, thank you for joining Joseph at nine today’s conversation. I hope you’ve learned something. Now all links Tuesday resources are on my website at Ted teo.com. That’s tt.com. If you want to stay up to date with all my latest episodes, remember to subscribe to the show and to the email list on the website itself as well.

 

Now if you’ve ever received any value from the show, then make sure you share this show with all of your friends and to leave a review on Apple podcasts. That’s all for me today. I’ll see you next time on the internet. This is Ted Teo, signing off.

[This transcript has been automatically generated by a digital software and will therefore  contain errors and typos. Please kindly take note of this and only rely on the digital transcript for reference.]

00:00

What’s up everyone this is Ted, your friend and host speaking and welcome back to the business show the best place for actionable advice for entrepreneurs. On today’s show we have Joseph australe. With get some class after Joseph graduated from Harvard Law and worked in the most prestigious law firms in New York, he realized that he did not want to pursue a long term career in law.

 

Left set up get some cost to provide classy virtual team building experiences that is executed at a very high level of quality. In fact, Joe’s accounts, some of the top US law firms and consulting firms as his clients, so he definitely has a thing or two to share about this as well. So what’s in it for you guys? Well, the key takeaways in today’s episode includes Joseph, his journey of self discovery, the importance of getting repeat customers, and the importance of managing expectations. Now for those of you who don’t know me,

 

I’m actually a mergers and acquisitions lawyer in Singapore. So Joseph and I definitely vide a lot in today’s conversation. Now, guys, the show has grown significantly over the last month. So thank you, each and every one of you has listening in right now. Your support keeps me going. And I’m eternally grateful, if you’d like to show some support for the show as well. And you can always subscribe to the show, share with somebody who find it useful as well.

 

And to leave a review on Apple podcasts. Now buckle down, strap up your info, right. Hey, Joseph, thank you for joining us today. It’s so nice to have you here.

 

01:14

Hey, Ted,

 

01:15

thank you so much for having me. Now, Joseph Liston have a very simple icebreaker. So we can all get to know you better. Could you share with us? Who is Joseph Christelle, when he isn’t working?

 

01:24

Yeah, I have no idea. You know, I’m in the process of figuring that out. peeling back lots of layers and figuring out who the hell am I you know.

 

So, you know, one of the things that that for me, I’ve realized is that we have so many stories and narratives that we live out of, and when you become part of becoming a real adult, is really beginning to understand, who are you kind of living for? And why. And so that, right now, I’m deep in that process of self exploration. What am I doing? Who am I doing it for?

 

Am I pretending to be something? You know, am I trying to prove myself? How can I, you know, stop trying to prove myself and so that’s kind of a major part of my current focus?

 

02:10

Well, it sounds like my friend Joseph is on a beautiful journey to learn about himself. Now, Joe. So since we’re talking about your journey, where you’re learning about yourself, please share with us your story. Now you previously read law in Harvard, and even join one a top law firms in a world thereafter. But you’ve left since and you’ve been quite vocal about how you realize that practicing law was just not for you. So you left and actually started your current venture, get some class, connect the dots for us, please walk us through what your thoughts were like, during this process. How do you feel about it? Yeah, sure.

 

02:41

So you know, I went to law school. I was probably I think I was like, 2028, or so when I started law school. So on the average a little bit later. You know, just for any listeners that don’t have proper context, in the US, a law degree is a secondary spray. It’s a post grad degree. You’ve already done your bachelor’s, I actually went to college,

 

I come from a very traditional religious background. And most of it you know, most of my high school education was focused on religious study, we actually didn’t have enough, you know, secondary coursework even to get a high school diploma. And I still think I’m the only guy in my high school class that went to college period.

 

Then even I only did that at about 22 years old, sneaking off at night from kind of a religious seminary. To take courses at night and some Lino small local college. You know, and I like that

 

03:38

you did very well, you know, there

 

03:39

you go. Well, the curiosity, you know, couldn’t be stifled at some point. It’s like, hey, what the hell am I doing? Is this really me, like I said before, you know, and it’s been a process of self discovery since so I went in about 2223. I started doing doing undergrad, I majored in psych, I thought about going into psych, I tried to get in, actually, to some social psych PhD programs, because because human psychology and human irrationality in particular, and the ways in which we kind of behave, and we’re thinking in ways that don’t make sense,

 

they’re kind of interesting to me, but I didn’t get in anywhere, you know, I didn’t really have any credentials at the time, then I had a family needed a career. So you know, I had friends go into law school. If you’re bright, you can get into some very good schools without kinda without, like, a lot of work experience or credentials.

 

And so I took the L SAT, I did really well. And I got into Harvard. And at that point, that’s like, you know, you’re going to Harvard. It’s pretty attractive opportunity is such an achievement. Yeah, you know, so so I went over I went to, I moved to Boston, you know, I went to Harvard, it’s my first time and kind of a really stimulating, sophisticated University and it was just you know, it was a blast.

 

It was unbelievable being with so many bright people having so many resources, the coolest people would come in, you know, you had some Supreme Court justices coming in, you know, throughout the year you had congressmen and senators and you know heads of agencies and the government or billionaires or you know, all sorts of really stimulating people. So it’s just a awesome opportunity.

 

I would have liked to stay there for longer but that at some point you graduate you got the student debt piling up, you’re gonna

 

05:21

pay it Oh,

 

05:21

I you gotta you have, you have to be fiscally responsible. You know, unfortunately, money doesn’t just drop from heaven. Although these days, some people are trying to drop it on us. Right? But yeah, so I went to work, I went to work at Davis, Polk, Davis, Polk and wardwell.

 

They’re like a top, top Manhattan firm. Some really Notable alumni, I’m sure you know, Kristin Gillibrand, the current senator of New York, and Grover Cleveland to go back president the united states. And you know, it was really an awesome place from an experience perspective, like they work was just really really, you know, that like, very sophisticated the people they are their professionalism was like it’s use, I’m sure you’ve interacted and your firm is probably like, really, really cool. But like, that kind of awesome attitude of professionalism.

 

You know, you just absorb it, absorb it through the walls, it was really, really a powerful learning experience. But at the same time, it was like, I’m sitting at a desk reviewing tiny pre tax provisions in these huge legal documents, I have nothing to do the transaction, no idea what’s going on. Why the hell is someone else doing a transaction? and not me, you know, is he smarter than me or she or like, probably not, like, I don’t want to sit here in the office clocking my time somewhere,

 

I want to take risk, I want skin in the game, I want strategy, I want to be creative. I want to decide what I think is the best way to do things. And you know, to hell with people telling me what to do.

 

06:52

Spoken like a true entrepreneur.

 

06:54

There you go, there you go. So I kind of realized that, but at the same time, it was like, How the hell do I get out of here? Right? You know, it’s good learning opportunity, good experience, good connections, but like, What do I do? So you’re super busy, like working in a law firm, it’s not easy to kind of have time to explore. And that can be a bit of both and stuff like that.

 

Exactly. You got to do the work. And you know, I didn’t want to slack and you know, not do a good job. So, you know, I there are some of the easier options and that come up are things like consulting or investment banking, you know, roles like that. And, of course, I thought about those, but like, no, they never talked to my heart, they’re kind of the easy way out. And sometimes, you know, it makes sense. It could make sense for somebody in a particular area, but often, they’re kind of a way of evading the ultimate decision, if that’s if your personality and character is like,

 

it’s like mine, that could be a way of, you know, eventually, you’d have to find some way to make that leap and that hop. So I had some false starts, you know, I started working on with a friend and a data privacy startup, which I wasn’t really interested in, but he was starting, and I was kind of desperate. So I’m like, Okay, fine. Maybe I’ll, you know, find a way but you want to give it a shot and see where it goes. Yeah, yeah. So eventually, you know, that crash, because we thought the area was too saturated.

 

Then the pandemic came along, and I was thinking about, you know, virtual classes for kids, and what can I do in the virtual space? And I participated in some stuff at work, you know, like a virtual wine tasting, wasn’t very impressed with it. But I said, like, Hey, what about virtual corporate events? So I reached out to, you know, an events person at Davis Polk, and I said, Hey, you know, I’m trying to understand the space because I’m not really happy with my career, and I think I want to do something else. So can you help me understand it?

 

And she was super gracious, very, very nice. really talked to me a few times. And then I just, you know, I was playing chess online during the pandemic before the Queen’s gambit came out, just by luck. And I said, huge Netflix it? Yeah, yeah. No, it was a great series. And I got like, that was just a stroke of luck. Yeah. So I said, you know, what about a chest event? And she’s like, never heard of that. That’s interesting. You know, why do you put it together and do a demo for us. So, you know, I went around looking for a top chess player, anyone who had an agent, you know, right away.

 

I just avoided but you can get pretty high in chess without getting too expensive and without somebody necessarily having an agent to represent them. I found that an awesome chess player Sam shankland. us chess jam, and he just won the Prague Masters Tournament. Like number 25 in the world.

 

09:29

I believe he’s also helping Magnus causing trade. Correct. He’s

 

09:32

trained Magnus. Yeah, he’s done. He’s done tray. He’s helped train Magnus helped Magnus prepare for championships, you know, really a serious, serious player. And then we went ahead and we, we did a demo for them.

 

So I’ve put together a structure I wasn’t going to risk doing the demo for them. Before I did it with friends. I did it with friends. And then we put together a little package with a chess set and a chess themed snack package with chessmen. cookies from Pepperidge farms and chest chocolates that I had to chocolatier make for me and you know, in a nice little box and we sent it to them. And then we did it and we had a little tournament and a strategy talk.

 

And, you know, they really enjoyed it. And so I’m like, you know, what the hell? Why don’t I do a demo for some other events people so I just started emailing events, people at other top law firms, I said, We’d like to attend a chess demo, and we’re still early enough in the pandemic that you know, they weren’t getting inundated. And they’re like Sure, so I had like 15 to 20 people show up and we did a demo and they liked it. And one of the one of the friends who had participated in my test audience liked it and he’s like wanting to do it for my company.

 

So that was actually our first event that we did for his company and then Wyden case emailed me like a couple weeks later they’re like hey, we want to do these chests event for a group so I did it for them and you know I start getting a few events like that

 

10:56

Yeah, the top names Yeah, yeah, I

 

11:01

was while I was doing my job on the side so I kept going surreptitiously you know law firms often can be very conservative about side projects so I didn’t want anybody to know until I was ready and then you know, I created a couple other programs which I can tell you about later. And then I landed a program focused on women in chess for the Boston Consulting Group and Oliver Wyman two different programs same same program for two different companies in March of this past year

 

and I was like you know what the hell if I can land programs like this for clients like this I’ll find some way to make it work you know I have revenue coming in there’s you know, there’s I have sales let me I’m just gonna jump ship

 

11:42

big names very early on. So yeah, you know, huge confidence boost.

 

11:46

Exactly, exactly. So you know, whether or not it was stupid I don’t know but I’m happy I jumped ship that’s for sure. Because you know, there was there were some facts on the ground it was not an imprudent completely unreasonable decision. And I was just so you know, done with you know, reviewing hybrid technical agreements not having some creative outlet so that’s kind of the the starting story.

 

12:13

Yeah, Joseph, you sound like a really creative guy, and you’re hot, you know, you’re an entrepreneur and you just took you a while to get there. You know, from your high school days to university to going to the firm, and then you realize, okay, as part of this self discovery journey, I think I know who I am. Joseph gastel is an entrepreneur.

 

12:30

Okay, if you’re trying to define me, but I told you I still don’t know who I am so well that’s how

 

12:34

I’ve seen you so far. But yeah, so Joseph, could you share what is the value proposition of the service that you are providing with get some class to your clients? in your own words, please?

 

12:43

Yeah, yeah. 100% so there’s, you know, there’s kind of the current value proposition right and then there’s, you know, who are we right so just like there’s the my process of self exploration Every business has a process of self exploration especially when you’re young you know, who really is your customer? Who really should you chase

 

How do you want to define yourself both from your own perspective and from a business creation perspective, what’s most profitable so right now what we are is we provide high end you know, virtual fun, that’s intellectually rich, or that’s kind of you know, particularly compelling and entertaining for companies and we’re starting to work with Alumni Associations as well on zoom or other platforms as well.

 

So you know, what we try to do is we try to build programs that are unique that are not being offered elsewhere and that are executed with a quality of First of all, you know at a quality that’s kind of you know, far higher than the average you know, team building offering out there so we use we try to use really cool talent try to do things in trying to make the problems contemporary and

 

I’ll give you an example of that shortly and then if there’s a package component we try to make a compliment the event really nicely and be kind of above and beyond and then we try to curate the program so that it’s really you know, it’s it’s fun and entertaining and if possible, you know, with an intellectual curiosity dimension to it. You want me to give an example? Yes, of course.

 

Please go ahead. Awesome. So there’s there’s two Well, there are a couple of good examples let’s start so one is we have a paint night offering and you’ve probably seen something like that, you know, where you get an art kit or some people don’t, don’t send that but you get an arcade and then you have an instructor Lita, a painting, you know, our so what we did there is I went ahead and I found a real artists whose works are, you know, very, very contemporary. So, artists, her name is Lisa Lickliter Kovalenko. She’s actually a middle of a solo show up in this, you know, prominent gallery in the Hudson. And she paints fragile ecosystems.

 

Oh, so she goes diving all over the world right now. Yeah, yeah, it’s awesome. She’s right now she’s, you know, in the process of painting a series on coral reefs and she goes scuba diving all over the world, she photographs them observes them then comes back and paints these unbelievable works. You know, the 54 inches by 18 inches, a lot of them, that’s six foot eight by four foot six, the big ones, and they take a month or two, and they’re just unbelievable replications of these underwater environments, and then what we do is, you know, she leads the session.

 

So it’s like, you get to learn about her artwork and learn from somebody who was a real master. And we paint something relating to her work. So we usually paint a simple coral reef painting, she talks about, you know, her artistic process about coral reefs. And, you know, everybody gets to paint with her. And then we’ll also bring on a marine biologist to talk about the science of coral reefs. Well,

 

15:44

so that’s the complimentary policy we’re talking about. Right?

 

15:46

Exactly, yeah. So we’re, you know, we’re trying to make it a deeper, intellectually rich, having multiple elements going on, so that there’s kind of, you know, stimulation from, you know, intellectually participatory for you, because you’re active, you’re doing something, and then we send everybody in our kit. And of course, we send them all the supplies they need.

 

And, you know, curate an instruction sheet with step by step, exactly what we’re doing what paintbrush we’re using, what color we’re using, because on zoom, it’s hard to kind of follow, you know, what the artists is, you know, what brought these kinds of little details. So we simplify that, but then we also throw in an art theme snack package. So we have custom made pallet shaped cookies, we print the company’s name on it, we put it into chocolate paintbrush, custom made by a chocolatier for me color coordinated candies with a beautiful welcomecard with her artwork on the back.

 

So really, really multi touch point, rich, cool towel and unique, thoughtful, really kind of that’s, you know, it’s a composite that’s far, you know, meant to be a much richer experience. So

 

16:42

I think what you’re really communicated is how you took a very simple idea that’s really existing the market because I mean, to be honest, virtual online, team building sessions are not new. But what I realized you do differently from the rest of the competition, is that you actually package it in a much higher quality, and you make sure that the execution is high quality as well, from what you just shared a simple art class, just by bringing in the right individual

 

who has a richer level experience and pairing it with the marine biologist, you made the whole experience, if I can say so a lot more deeply memorial in totality. So Joseph, what kind of reactions do you get from your clients,

 

17:17

people have said, you know, thank you so much for this awesome opportunity, you know, really, really unique, didn’t think would be this much fun, etc. So that very, very favorable. You know, responses, we’ve run the program for Kirkland and Ellis, for example, you know, like, I think four times already for different groups. So overall, very, very favorable responses to that program, and some of the other ones as well.

 

17:45

So guys, as Joseph has shared, one way you can really stand out from the competition is to really just emphasize on taking the old business model and executing it at a higher level in a way that gives a better and deeper experience to your customers. Sometimes, that’s all it takes, you don’t even have to create a whole new market, or a whole new business model.

 

Now Joseph, could you share with us some of the key learning points that you took away when you first started your business? What are some maybe mistakes they were made? And how did you improve on these processes,

 

18:12

one mess up early on, that’s happened, you know, one or two times and it’s gonna happen is we shipped, you know, raw ingredients for, for, you know, a stakeout or cooking event or a couple of our cooking events. And we’ve had situations where this stuff got there, and the aspects were improperly frozen, and I got an email, hey, you know, what you send me is warm, right? The meat is not cold enough. And that’s kind of, you know, obviously a disaster.

 

And the truth is, I happen to know that butcherbox for example, you know, calculates their, how they send the packages, and how much dry ice and how much, you know, what they put in with us, there is an exact science that based on zip code they’ve developed and, you know, they calculate student fail rate, and they optimize the cost to allow for a certain fail rate. And, you know, they replaced the package very quickly. But either way, you know, when you’re in this, there’s going to be fails, inevitably, because ups will delay and so on.

 

But you don’t want the fail to be as a result of view. So, you know, we’ve had mistakes and what I, the the, you know, it’s scary to make a mistake like that, especially when you have you know, certain Yeah, serious clients. But what I’ve found is, you know, even though it’s very scary to do, you got to be proactive about it, you reach out, you communicate, you say,

 

Hey, you know what, just want to let you know, apparently there was, you know, there wasn’t enough ice or wasn’t probably frozen, and some people got it and was not in a state that we’re comfortable with, we’re going to replace it and so, when that happens,

 

what I’ve done is I’ve gone on instacart and I’ve actually sent people I replaced their meat off instacart you know, within a day or so, so that they could participate and have a good time because I want to make sure that they have a good time. So yeah, that’s kind of a, you know, a lesson in in logistics optimization stuff like that’s going to happen if you’re doing some sort of logistics like this.

 

And you want to be in a position where you kind of are proactive about it. And now what I’ve learned to do is kind of try and communicate in advance and tell people look, this is how we ship. Invariably, you know, we rely on ups, there could be some, you know, lag with ups and stuff like that, something like this could happen, and we’ll stay on top of it, we’ll do our best. And then, you know, I try to make what we’re responsible for, obviously, be reasonable. And then, you know, just couldn’t set expectations appropriately in the beginning. So yeah, that’s kind of one example. Probably a lot of different things we can talk about what that question, though, is

 

20:45

very cool, because you know, the whole emphasis on customer satisfaction is always driving the way that you run the business process as well, which is super important, especially if you want them to come back as recurring clients,

 

20:54

it’s a tie back to law, right. So I’m not practicing law. I mean, I’ve read our contracts. But that’s not a major part of what we do. But one of the things that I did take that is just tremendously valuable is that kind of emphasis on professionalism, and communication. And, you know, that is the place where I tried to make our service really, really, really strong.

 

So you know, we send, we send a tracking sheet with every single tracking number or to the whoever the coordinator is, with a link, they can click to check on it, we follow up, I update them, you know, what’s going on with the packaging, or in touch, we try to be, you know, very, very communicative, and very, very reliable in the same way that the elite, you know, law circles that we work at, do so that I kind of learned that from their true self

 

21:41

this issue very true. Something that’s always been shared with law students is that the study and practice of the law is not just a career or profession, the law actually teaches you many life skills that could help you in any endeavor that you do in the future. Now guys to circle back to Joseph’s earlier point, if you’re in a business where you are actually involved in logistics, there always inevitably be times when there are deliveries. So the best way you can do this is to manage

 

that communication process with your clients in the event that they are possible, make subs, be upfront about it, and address how you can make this better for your client. As soon as you can. Your clients want to see a certain level of professionalism from you. And it’s that degree of professionalism and ability to take care of the needs that will bring them back as repeat customers. Joseph, could you share some tips on how you’ve actually been able to get your customers to come back as repeat customers,

 

22:28

it’s, um, I think you’re touching on something that’s kind of important. So for a while, I was kind of focused on getting more customers and I still am. But like, appreciating who my existing customers are, and how large their organizations are, and paying attention and trying to deepen and cultivate those relationships. I didn’t realize the importance of that early on enough, I realized that somebody kind of, you know, knocked me on the head and said,

 

Hey, you know, you don’t rush to get other customers and forget about your current ones. Even if you have a small number of very large companies, for a business like mine, you know, that could be, I could have a small number of customers like that and have a full business. So you know, what I’ve been trying to do is kind of turn back and focus on the people that

 

I’ve interfaced with, and try to ensure that we have periodic touch points that I’m sharing stuff with them, that we’re kind of re engaging and the like, and now what we’re trying to do is instead of just having and this kind of is a more general sales and temporary sales topic, instead of kind of everything needing to be trying to get people on the phone for a conversation or trying to, you know, share your marketing and sales material, trying to find ways to add value to them that are not directly salesy. So you know, we just hosted a conversation last week,

 

Thursday, we’re actually doing a second second one on the same topic for people can make it this Thursday, on how to make an awesome virtual holiday party. And we’re going through, you know, some of the principles that we use to design things and then some ideas. And that’s kind of a way of giving people value without selling directly and so, you know, it nurtures the relationship and allows you to say hey, you know, come join us for this discussion on how to make an awesome you know, virtual event or come join us for this discussion on how to ensure that your employees are connecting and building relationships even though they’re no longer than office together, right?

 

So programs like that are, you know, where we’re headed, so that we can have ongoing value provision that is not directly salesy, and we can, you know, nurture and deepen our relationships with our existing customers, while also adding new, you know, prospects and customers by, you know, providing other sources of value to them that are not directly salesy.

 

So that’s, you know a bit about the of like, not realizing, realizing how valuable they it is to deepen those relationships, finding ways that are not just kind of, you know, sales oriented to deepen those. And we’re in the process of learning it. So I don’t know the answer to that question, which is kind of, by the way, a theme? I don’t know the answers to the question, you know, good place.

 

Exactly. It’s a good place to stay, you know, you want to keep it said, Yeah, too, because you want to be curious. There’s this this famous thing of Socrates. And I’ll pause sorry, if I’m going on too long. You know, Socrates used to go around saying Know thyself, right. And, you know, finally, you know, one young guy with some clips by you, you mentioned that word. I think when we talk pre interview, he says to Socrates, well, Socrates, you say, Don’t Know thyself all the time?

 

Do you know yourself? Right? And Socrates says, No, I don’t know myself. But I know something about this not knowing. Right? And so you know, in many areas in life, almost any intellectual area, the goal is to know something about the not knowing but not to let go of the mind that doesn’t know this is very Zen. And also, by the way, right? Don’t know mind. beginner’s mind, they call it right,

 

26:08

interesting points. Joseph. Now guys, one thing I’d like to talk about is the idea of your cost of customer acquisition. So every time you actually acquire a new customer, you need to factor in your cost of customer acquisition. So a great part of getting repeat customers is that their cost of customer acquisition is a lot lower. And this tends to translate into higher profit margins.

 

Now, Joseph, no conversation about get some class will be complete about talking about the amazing trainers that you have on board with your company. Well, I know you’re really shared about a few trainers that you have on board at the moment, who are the rest of the talented individuals that you have on board? And how do you get them to join you as part of the program? Yeah, so

 

26:44

you know, each one is kind of a different story. Sam, I found on the internet, you know, was looking around through the top ranked chess players. And then I started looking for the websites, I found the number, but like, they seem to have agents. And then I found Sam and I reached out to him, and this was kind of still in the height of the pandemic.

 

And so, you know, people weren’t going around that they didn’t have what to do. And, you know, hopping on zoom for an hour and leaving something in your area was just a cool opportunity. And, you know, he was happy to kind of work with me around it and testing it. And it’s, it’s just, you know, I got lucky they are found a mixture of luck and work and the right time.

 

And that’s how I found Sam, then a lot of, you know, I try when I find one of the things I’ve learned is, when I find one, some talent in an area, oftentimes they’ll and I build credibility and relationship with them, they’ll kind of help me find other talents in that area.

 

So that’s, that’s one thing that’s been very fruitful. The other some of the other ones, like, you know, nikolina, I have a friend who is an artist. And she, she knew about Nika because she loves her work. So she mentioned her to me, and then I reached out. I think it’s kind of you know, it’s important that for me, the vision is not just it’s not just the business vision, there’s an element over here about conveying the what it is that we’re running the program around,

 

so like, I love her, the art loved her art, and I love the fact that she’s kind of highlighting these really, really magnificent elements of the world. And so, you know, we’re not just connecting or connecting on you know, it’s not just about Hey, let me run this business program. It’s kind of let me you know, let me share you with the world Yeah,

 

28:49

it’s part of your whole curation process as well right? I’m sure each of the individual trainers that you bring in you’ve personally believe in what you’re teaching and you want that experience for your customers as well.

 

29:00

Yeah, I try to you know, I like to be excited about the people that I’m choosing to bring in so I like them to be awesome and you know, I feel they’re you know, when I feel they’re awesome, and like I’m a big fan of theirs, it’s kind of helpful to convincing them to come on board and do something. But yeah, it’s also you know, like I said during the pandemic, people were looking for opportunities I

 

29:27

understand now Joseph a key part of having a good relationship between is that you have on board is to definitely set the expectations right from the very start. So what advice would you have given yourself when you first started this program now that you have the experience that you have? Yeah, I

 

29:41

think I didn’t do it that well in the sense that for some of them yeah, like I have people that are awesome, and I really want to run programs with but and we have I’ve designed promos with them, but I haven’t yet run a program with them. And what I think I would have done could have done better and in working on improving on his managing expectations, you know, in general, you need to have a long term focus. And if you’re trying to rush the results,

 

you’ll often come, you’re just you’re not, which I was doing initially, and to some extent was appropriate, because I kind of wanted to validate the idea, right? You’re, but you can’t, you don’t take the time to set up proper marketing funnels and marketing materials and you know, learn that whole process. So you the long term focus is important.

 

And it’s same thing applies to, you know, expectation management, when it comes to the people you’re trying to get on board. And it just like I said, before, you know, you want to just signal very clearly, what, when I’m sending packages to people that they should expect that some may not get there, right. And that’s normal, especially when you’re sending a lot, you want to signal to people you’re working with what to expect. And so like, if you’re starting with somebody and you make contact with them, it may be that you don’t come back to them for six months or a year.

 

And so you kind of, you know, the more upfront you are about that process, and the fact that like, Hey, you know, there may be a number of false doors here, I’m building a young business till I figure out exactly how it goes, and I can’t even promise you know that I’m going to bring you something. But I really like what you do I love you know, I think you’re awesome. And I would love to figure out exactly how to do that. And it may take me six months or a year, but I’m gonna try a number of times, and so many of these may peter out, but eventually, I hope to really come back and do something awesome.

 

If not, you know not, but I really would like to, and I really think that you’re, you know, really, really cool. So that’s kind of the message that I really would like to send now, and would have been helpful to know then. But you know, live live and learn,

 

31:49

live and learn. Indeed. Now, Joseph, you mentioned earlier in the conversation that you will also be working on some other side projects, would you like to share them? No, yeah, sure. So

 

31:57

you know, when I first of all, it just just just to step back for a second, if you’re a client you have if you’re doing something and you don’t know what you want to do, one of the things you want to, and you want to You mean, you know you want to do something else, you’re not happy, and you don’t know what you want to do, and nothing and things aren’t just falling in your lap, you want to find ways to kind of begin to put things out into the world that can bounce back to, you know, think of it as like you’re existing in a gray space.

 

And you need to figure out what are the contours of that space, so you can make more informed decisions and know where where you can jump, that’s not so risky. You want to be throwing things around the space. And so you want to find ways to generate to network and generate relationships and interactions, but have something to do with around. So it’s not just like, Hey, can I talk to you? Because something I mean, that can work too.

 

You can talk to lots of people, that’s helpful. But if you can do it around the like, Hey, I’m putting together a conversation around this, would you like to come or you know, I’m organizing some group around this, the something else would you like to join that that’s an awesome way to kind of begin to explore space. And so one thing, I took me a while to get out of a law firm. And one thing I realized is there’s a lot of lawyers that are no longer practicing law.

 

And in particular, you know, Harvard lawyers that aren’t practicing law, and some of them are, you know, doing amazing things. Last week, I spoke to somebody, she’s the chief growth officer of the New York Times, right? She’s a Harvard lawyer. And, you know, many fortune 500 CEOs are Harvard lawyers. And, and obviously, not just Harvard, but because that was my school, what was kind of natural for me to start looking for people like that.

 

And I said, I started reaching out to friends and other people. And I said, Hey, would you want to be part of group of lawyers who have left the law? And they’re like, a lot of people’s like, yeah, that’s interesting. I would love to because people, you know, they relate to their legal background, they relate to their people, the school they went to is very important to them. Especially when it’s, you know, a prestigious school. And there are lots of other people doing cool things. So they said, Yeah, and so we started doing like, you know, occasional networking events, and virtual and programming.

 

And now I have 140 people on the list. And, you know, we’re trying to find ways to provide value to them, and then also to allow them to mentor other lawyers who would like to, you know, shift careers and we’re actually running an experiment in December. We’re hosting a career fair for and we’re bringing 25 companies who to offer non legal roles to existing lawyers out of elite law firms, and if anyone’s listening to this, and you, you know, there’s a talent shortage out there.

 

You want awesome talent. Where are you we are going to be bringing, you know, 100 top lawyers from awesome law firms who don’t want to practice law and are looking for some way to transition and offering them you know, non legal roles, whether it’s project management, whether it’s legal, adjacent legal tech, you know, consulting or you know just MCs role in a startup those are kind of you know the the roles we’re really trying to get public policy the full range so it could be completely unrelated to law operations You know, a lot of these lawyers are very conscientious very, very capable.

 

We’re still building a roster of attendees, we’re not charging the company is anything it’s an experiment, we’re going to see how it goes. But I think it’s going to be you know, a we have interest already, I think it’d be really cool. So that’s kind of a side project and, you know, side projects are awesome because they teach you about a space and then if you need a if you you, once you’ve learned about it, you know, softly you can kind of find a way to make a business they are also so like,

 

it doesn’t have to be the goal, but oftentimes they could kick something off. So yeah, that’s kind of my side project.

 

35:44

So Joseph, the listeners only remember one thing from today’s conversation would you like it to be

 

35:49

Yeah, um, I think it ties back to what we were just discussing, you know, being curious, exploring, finding ways to you know, test that curiosity by building relationships around something you’re interested in without kind of even a definite goal is really really good. Keep it keep it don’t know mind around things you know, don’t assume that you know, and sit and it’s okay to stay in that place of curiosity of not knowing that’s you know, it’s a good place to be you know, keep your keep your mind open and, and try to be as human and relational about the process as possible.

 

So, you know, try to be honest, try to be authentic, don’t necessarily try to be getting something out of the conversation. It’s hard sometimes, especially when you’re trying to really build not to, but just, you know, play the long game and be curious, open, authentic connect to people find ways to help them that’s kind of really really good because those things often evolve into collaborative relationships that are really really productive and mutually beneficial.

 

So yeah, that’s that’s kind of my my, the, what I would emphasize which is more than one thing, the Curiosity the authenticity and the finding ways to provide mutual benefit.

 

37:07

So Joseph, how can listeners get in contact with you they want to work with you or they want to get a class with get some class

 

37:12

Yeah, so you can email me directly at Joseph at get some class calm. That’s j s cph. At get some class, that’s the three words get some class calm. And people you know, if you just want to talk, you want to talk about transitioning entrepreneurship, or, you know, thinking about ways to find alternate careers. If you’re interested in though, in the career fair that I had mentioned, you can get in touch as well, you know, it doesn’t have to be directly.

 

 You don’t have to be coming to provide a sale to me, I would love that and come Come give me a huge sale. You know, we’re trying to crush our numbers. But this year, bring us a million dollar sale, we’ll send 1000 packages that will do that for you. But you don’t have to just come if you want to talk. If it’s interesting, you want to you need some help you want me to make a connection for you to somebody that might be helpful for you. By all means, feel free to reach out.

 

38:00

Now Joseph, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your experience and your expertise. It’s so nice having you here.

 

38:05

Thank you, Ted. It’s been a pleasure. I like what you’re doing. It’s it’s really cool to have an opportunity to meet somebody from across the world and to connect and you’re doing you’re doing a good job.

 

38:14

So guys, thank you for joining Joseph at nine today’s conversation. I hope you’ve learned something. Now all links Tuesday resources are on my website at Ted teo.com. That’s tt.com. If you want to stay up to date with all my latest episodes, remember to subscribe to the show and to the email list on the website itself as well.

 

Now if you’ve ever received any value from the show, then make sure you share this show with all of your friends and to leave a review on Apple podcasts. That’s all for me today. I’ll see you next time on the internet. This is Ted Teo, signing off.